Cessna 15X for heavy guys

[Ben Hallert]

Hi guys,

I'm a student pilot with about 26 hours, learning to fly in a
PA-28-161, Piper Cherokee Warrior.

It's a great plane, I feel comfortable in it, but I've looked at the
costs and see that I couldn't afford to buy one. I'd like to build
time after I get my PPL, so I investigated the flying situation in my
new town (Eugene/Springfield Oregon) and found that there's one flying
club with a 172, but it seems to be more expensive then just renting
from the local FBO ($93 hr wet plus club dues versus straight up $93
wet), and I can't afford to punch holes in the sky at $93 an hour. At
least, not as often as I like.

I want to fly every week, more often then that if possible. I've been
taking two lessons a day, one before work and one during lunch usually,
and I could maintain that type of flying for a long time.

I know that up to a certain point, it's cheaper to rent, but around
now, a Cessna 150/152 or Piper Traumahawk is starting to look pretty
good as a starter plane to own so I can work on practicing.

It looks like I could get one of the three as a straight VFR plane for
around $20,000, and I can scrape that sort of cash up if my wife lets
me.

The tricky part is, I weigh 250 right now, and expect to be around 220
by the time I could buy the plane (I was 330 a year ago, so it's not an
unrealistic target).

With that all out, I see the following obstacles:

1. Getting qualified in a new plane. Since I might go from a low wing
Cherokee to a high wing 150/152, I guess there would be some real dual
time needed to get everything down. Unless I can find an instructor
who's wafer thin, I could see this being a complication.

2. Making it worth while. Without having to worry about aircraft
loans, what's a realistic $$$ figure these days for flying? Say I do
100-200 hours a year, is it reasonable to manage total costs of $40-45
an hour? Is that on the high or low side? (figuring gas, tie down
fees, insurance, inspections, saving for the tear down, mechanical
surprises, etc)

3. Flying alone as a 220-240lb person, would a 150/152/Tomahawk be ok?
I climb at 800-1000FPM in the Piper Cherokee, and I'm sure it'd be
slower in the 152, but how much worse? I'd hate to spend the first
half of my cross-country flight climbing.

4. If I wanted to put some extra money to find a plane in this class w/
IFR stuff so I can work on that rating next, about how much does that
usually add to the cost? How often do these planes actually have IFR
stuff?

I've researched and researched, and most of the cost of ownership
number breakdowns I've seen on Usenet were 5 or more years old.

I have the bug, what's the prognosis? Will I live free with my own
plane I can blast around in? Or will I be shackled by the chains of
FBOs forever?

[10Squared]

Post by Ben Hallert
1. Getting qualified in a new plane. Since I might go from a low wing
Cherokee to a high wing 150/152, I guess there would be some real dual
time needed to get everything down. Unless I can find an instructor
who's wafer thin, I could see this being a complication.

Your insurance provider will probably want you to have a few hours dual in
the Cessna before turning you loose solo.

Post by Ben Hallert
3. Flying alone as a 220-240lb person, would a 150/152/Tomahawk be ok?
I climb at 800-1000FPM in the Piper Cherokee, and I'm sure it'd be
slower in the 152, but how much worse? I'd hate to spend the first
half of my cross-country flight climbing.

This would be a good exercise in doing weight & balance and performance
calculations. While you're at it, throw in a hot day at a field that is a
few thousand feet above sea level. One of your local FBOs should have a 15x
manual.

Post by Ben Hallert
I've researched and researched, and most of the cost of ownership
number breakdowns I've seen on Usenet were 5 or more years old.

The calculations haven't changed. Gas costs a little more and insurance
costs more, but some things vary according to your location such as hangar
rentals. You just need to plug the current prices in to your spreadsheet.

Post by Ben Hallert
I have the bug, what's the prognosis? Will I live free with my own
plane I can blast around in? Or will I be shackled by the chains of
FBOs forever?

Perhaps you could start a small flying club with a couple of others in your
area and get something a little more capable?

Have fun,

Jim

[George Patterson]

Post by Ben Hallert
1. Getting qualified in a new plane. Since I might go from a low wing
Cherokee to a high wing 150/152, I guess there would be some real dual
time needed to get everything down. Unless I can find an instructor
who's wafer thin, I could see this being a complication.

A 152 can carry about 530 pounds. Reduce that for the radios, dirt, second paint
job, etc., and we're talking about 500 pounds. If you're 220 and you hire a 180
pound instructor, you'll still be able to put 16 gallons in the tanks. This is
just an example.

Just be careful with your W&B calcs before the flight and put the right amount
of gas in the tanks.

Post by Ben Hallert
2. Making it worth while. Without having to worry about aircraft
loans, what's a realistic $$$ figure these days for flying? Say I do
100-200 hours a year, is it reasonable to manage total costs of $40-45
an hour? Is that on the high or low side? (figuring gas, tie down
fees, insurance, inspections, saving for the tear down, mechanical
surprises, etc)

Probably a little on the light side.

Post by Ben Hallert
3. Flying alone as a 220-240lb person, would a 150/152/Tomahawk be ok?
I climb at 800-1000FPM in the Piper Cherokee, and I'm sure it'd be
slower in the 152, but how much worse? I'd hate to spend the first
half of my cross-country flight climbing.

You'd be fine in any of them. I owned a 150 for years. It had a single NAV/COM,
LORAN, MBR, and Mode-C transponder. You would be able to fill the tanks and
carry yourself and a few pounds of luggage. The rate of climb will be a bit over
600 fpm at sea level. Best cruise is at 6500', where you will see about 100
knots. You'll burn a bit less than 6 gph.

Post by Ben Hallert
4. If I wanted to put some extra money to find a plane in this class w/
IFR stuff so I can work on that rating next, about how much does that
usually add to the cost? How often do these planes actually have IFR
stuff?

These planes rarely have an IFR stack; I had one in mine because I wanted to
train in it. When I bought my Maule, I moved the radios into the new plane. You
might consider doing the same. If you choose to go the same route, you will want
to buy most of the stuff new -- that will add at least $15,000 by the time you
get everything installed, depending on what you buy (that's a panel-mount GPS,
NAV/COM with GS, MBR, and mode-C xpndr). If, on the other hand, you want to sell
the stack when you sell the plane, used gear is the way to go. You'll cut the
purchase price in half, though the installation cost will stay the same.

George Patterson
He who tries to carry a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in
no other way.

[George Patterson]

Post by George Patterson
A 152 can carry about 530 pounds.

Should be 430 pounds.

George Patterson
He who tries to carry a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in
no other way.

[Kyle Boatright]

Post by Ben Hallert
Hi guys,
I'm a student pilot with about 26 hours, learning to fly in a
PA-28-161, Piper Cherokee Warrior.
It's a great plane, I feel comfortable in it, but I've looked at the
costs and see that I couldn't afford to buy one. I'd like to build
time after I get my PPL, so I investigated the flying situation in my
new town (Eugene/Springfield Oregon) and found that there's one flying
club with a 172, but it seems to be more expensive then just renting
from the local FBO ($93 hr wet plus club dues versus straight up $93
wet), and I can't afford to punch holes in the sky at $93 an hour. At
least, not as often as I like.
I want to fly every week, more often then that if possible. I've been
taking two lessons a day, one before work and one during lunch usually,
and I could maintain that type of flying for a long time.
I know that up to a certain point, it's cheaper to rent, but around
now, a Cessna 150/152 or Piper Traumahawk is starting to look pretty
good as a starter plane to own so I can work on practicing.
It looks like I could get one of the three as a straight VFR plane for
around $20,000, and I can scrape that sort of cash up if my wife lets
me.
The tricky part is, I weigh 250 right now, and expect to be around 220
by the time I could buy the plane (I was 330 a year ago, so it's not an
unrealistic target).
1. Getting qualified in a new plane. Since I might go from a low wing
Cherokee to a high wing 150/152, I guess there would be some real dual
time needed to get everything down. Unless I can find an instructor
who's wafer thin, I could see this being a complication.
2. Making it worth while. Without having to worry about aircraft
loans, what's a realistic $$$ figure these days for flying? Say I do
100-200 hours a year, is it reasonable to manage total costs of $40-45
an hour? Is that on the high or low side? (figuring gas, tie down
fees, insurance, inspections, saving for the tear down, mechanical
surprises, etc)
3. Flying alone as a 220-240lb person, would a 150/152/Tomahawk be ok?
I climb at 800-1000FPM in the Piper Cherokee, and I'm sure it'd be
slower in the 152, but how much worse? I'd hate to spend the first
half of my cross-country flight climbing.
4. If I wanted to put some extra money to find a plane in this class w/
IFR stuff so I can work on that rating next, about how much does that
usually add to the cost? How often do these planes actually have IFR
stuff?
I've researched and researched, and most of the cost of ownership
number breakdowns I've seen on Usenet were 5 or more years old.
I have the bug, what's the prognosis? Will I live free with my own
plane I can blast around in? Or will I be shackled by the chains of
FBOs forever?

My suggestion would be to spend $20k on a decent Tomahawk, but you'll find
plenty of folks out there who hate 'em. Some of those folks have even flown
them. ;-)

The Tomahawk has much more interior space than a Cessna 2 seater. I
remember rubbing shoulders with my instructor in C-152's so I really enjoyed
the extra width in the Tomahawk.

When I had a Tomahawk I also had a partner who weighed 210 or thereabouts. I
weigh 160 or so. The airplane holds 30 (or is it 28) usable gallons, and 2
"unusable" gallons, if I remember correctly.Our airplane had a useful load
of 508 lbs and a fuel burn of 7 GPH. We usually filled the tanks to 18-20
gallons (assume 110 lbs) which left us 25-30 pounds for baggage and let us
go 2 hours/200 nautical miles between stops on X/C flights. By yourself,
there would be plenty of allowance for full tanks and lots of bags (although
there is a placard not to exceed 100 lbs in the baggage area - I was close
several times on solo flights or with light passengers.) While weight may
be an issue, CG was never an issue. You would really have had to work to
get our airplane out of the CG limits.

Fully loaded, expect 500 fpm climb. Light, expect 1,000 fpm. I had the
airplane at 10,000 ft one hot summer day, with the airplane as close to
gross weight as you can be assuming you started off at a legal weight.
Fairly impressive, since density altitude was right at the airplane's
service ceiling, and our airplane wasn't factory new.

KB

[r***@yahoo.com]

Look for a good used Cherokee 140. I remember seeing a couple of decent
ones in Texas advertised in the low 20's.

[Ben Hallert]

Thanks everyone for your replies so far! After some thought, I've
turned this blue-sky sequence towards the Tomahawk. I've got a big
frame, and I don't expect that will change as I lose weight, so the
extra width of the cabin appeals to me, as does the enhanced
visibility. I'm not as wild about the uncontrolled flat spins (We'll
never forget you, Goose!) but there are enough that haven't fallen out
of the sky that I think I can manage that.

If anyone could take a look at the basic figures I'm coming up with and
tell me if any of them are in fantasyland or not, I'd appreciate it.

Cost to purchase: $20,000 (roughly, figure an inspection in there too)
Fuel cost to operate: ~$10 an hour
Insurance: ~$1,000 a year, but I have no basis for that figure other
then some poorly remembered usenet posts.
Tie-down: ~$50 a month? Total guess, based off taking the average
tie-down cost in Wisconsin ($35) then adjusting it for longitude.
TBO: $8,000 - I couldn't actually find anyone saying how much they
spent having their O-235-L2C overhauled. I looked, I really did, but
the closest I got was a post where someone replaced theirs with the
engine out of their Subaru, so I guessed.

I found a specific plane listed with 1,400 hours left before TBO, so
I'll figure 1,400 in this excercise for math's sake. I'll also assume
100 hours of flying in a year, though I hope it would be more. I know
100 is a magic figure in a lot of discussions around renting vs.
owning.

I know I'm missing something, but I can't figure out what. Here's what
I get for an hourly cost using: (hourly fuel) + ((rebuild cost)/(TBO -
SMOH)) + ((yearly tie down) / 100 hours) + (insurance / 100 hours)

(10) + (8000/1400=5.71) + (600 / 100=6) + (1000 / 100=10) sums out to
$31.71 an hour. Figure another $10 an hour to cover things like
keeping a 'holy crap, the propeller hit a bird' or 'I just GOTTA put a
glass cockpit in' fund full, parking fees, etc, and it comes out just
over $40 an hour.

Am I missing anything big that can't be fit into the extra $10 an hour
I tacked on at the end? Or could I really be owning for that type of
cost?

Thanks!

[kontiki]

If I were you I'd set my sights on a C172 or maybe a Cherokee.
Older models of these can be found for not a whole lot more than a
nice C150 (do a lot of careful looking and jump on an opportunity)
and they will have a lot more capability.

Subcribe to tradeAPlane and start some serious looking. Be
patient and learn as much as you can about what's out there.
You can find a good running 172 that needs some upgrades and/or
cosmetic repair that you can do over time while you fly it.
If oyu are interested in IFR these models will be more viable
in the longer run than a 150.

[Kyle Boatright]

Post by Ben Hallert
Thanks everyone for your replies so far! After some thought, I've
turned this blue-sky sequence towards the Tomahawk. I've got a big
frame, and I don't expect that will change as I lose weight, so the
extra width of the cabin appeals to me, as does the enhanced
visibility. I'm not as wild about the uncontrolled flat spins (We'll
never forget you, Goose!) but there are enough that haven't fallen out
of the sky that I think I can manage that.
If anyone could take a look at the basic figures I'm coming up with and
tell me if any of them are in fantasyland or not, I'd appreciate it.
Cost to purchase: $20,000 (roughly, figure an inspection in there too)
Fuel cost to operate: ~$10 an hour
Insurance: ~$1,000 a year, but I have no basis for that figure other
then some poorly remembered usenet posts.
Tie-down: ~$50 a month? Total guess, based off taking the average
tie-down cost in Wisconsin ($35) then adjusting it for longitude.
TBO: $8,000 - I couldn't actually find anyone saying how much they
spent having their O-235-L2C overhauled. I looked, I really did, but
the closest I got was a post where someone replaced theirs with the
engine out of their Subaru, so I guessed.
I found a specific plane listed with 1,400 hours left before TBO, so
I'll figure 1,400 in this excercise for math's sake. I'll also assume
100 hours of flying in a year, though I hope it would be more. I know
100 is a magic figure in a lot of discussions around renting vs.
owning.
I know I'm missing something, but I can't figure out what. Here's what
I get for an hourly cost using: (hourly fuel) + ((rebuild cost)/(TBO -
SMOH)) + ((yearly tie down) / 100 hours) + (insurance / 100 hours)
(10) + (8000/1400=5.71) + (600 / 100=6) + (1000 / 100=10) sums out to
$31.71 an hour. Figure another $10 an hour to cover things like
keeping a 'holy crap, the propeller hit a bird' or 'I just GOTTA put a
glass cockpit in' fund full, parking fees, etc, and it comes out just
over $40 an hour.
Am I missing anything big that can't be fit into the extra $10 an hour
I tacked on at the end? Or could I really be owning for that type of
cost?
Thanks!

Check your fuel cost again. There is no auto fuel STC for the Tomahawk. I'd
figure the high side of $20/hr for fuel.

Also, getting an 0-235 majored costs just as much as an 0-320 or 0-360.
Figure $12-$15k, depending on whether what auxilaries you replace at major.

Also, add a dollar an hour for oil changes and another dollar or two for
tires and brakes. Depending on the AD status of the aircraft, you may be
subject to 100 hour inspections of the tail section. Figure $75 per
inspection...

KB

[George Patterson]

Post by Ben Hallert
Fuel cost to operate: ~$10 an hour

Probably closer to $18/hr. It'll burn about 6 gph in cruise, and fuel runs 2.65
to 3.05 at the small fields around here.

Post by Ben Hallert
Insurance: ~$1,000 a year, but I have no basis for that figure other
then some poorly remembered usenet posts.

It may be a bit more at first, but it will go down a bit over time. Probably
wind up closer to $800 once you get a few hundred hours in the plane. You can
get a better idea from Chris Wolbert at 301-682-6200. He's a broker.

Post by Ben Hallert
Tie-down: ~$50 a month? Total guess, based off taking the average
tie-down cost in Wisconsin ($35) then adjusting it for longitude.

Call a local airport and find out. They run $85/month near the New Jersey coast,
and there are places not far away that are considerably higher.

Post by Ben Hallert
TBO: $8,000 - I couldn't actually find anyone saying how much they
spent having their O-235-L2C overhauled.

More like $14,000.

Post by Ben Hallert
I know I'm missing something, but I can't figure out what.

Annual inspection. Again, you should call a local shop for better figures, but
$500 is probably close. You should also allow a few hundred dollars a year for
unexpected maintenance.

If you *really* want to know what it costs, also add in the interest on any loan
you have to take *or* the amount of interest you would receive from investing
the money. Many of us deliberately ignore this, arguing that the plane will
increase in value. Your choice.

George Patterson
He who tries to carry a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in
no other way.

[dave]

Ben,
I was just at the airport (klom) and they had a Tomahawk for sale on the
bulletin board. I don't know the particulars. Call Montgomery County
Aviation and ask them to get the contact information off the bulletin
board for you, if you're interested. Their website is
www.wingsfield.com. Call everyone selling a tomahawk in the country
and talk to them about their plane, even if the plane is too far, too
much money, needs too much work, etc. You'll start to get a feel for
what they're worth. See if there's an internet group dedicated to the
tomahawks. They're tons of help. I joined the citabria group on
Yahoo.com before I got my plane. Those folks are great.

BTW, at wings a grass tie down is $75/month and pavement is $125. My
leaking hanger without a door is $175/month and I'm happy to have it!!!
Fuel is $3.00/gallon except on Wednesday when they knock $.40 off.
Good luck in your search.

Dave
68 7ECA

Post by Ben Hallert
Thanks everyone for your replies so far! After some thought, I've
turned this blue-sky sequence towards the Tomahawk. I've got a big
frame, and I don't expect that will change as I lose weight, so the
extra width of the cabin appeals to me, as does the enhanced
visibility. I'm not as wild about the uncontrolled flat spins (We'll
never forget you, Goose!) but there are enough that haven't fallen out
of the sky that I think I can manage that.
If anyone could take a look at the basic figures I'm coming up with and
tell me if any of them are in fantasyland or not, I'd appreciate it.
Cost to purchase: $20,000 (roughly, figure an inspection in there too)
Fuel cost to operate: ~$10 an hour
Insurance: ~$1,000 a year, but I have no basis for that figure other
then some poorly remembered usenet posts.
Tie-down: ~$50 a month? Total guess, based off taking the average
tie-down cost in Wisconsin ($35) then adjusting it for longitude.
TBO: $8,000 - I couldn't actually find anyone saying how much they
spent having their O-235-L2C overhauled. I looked, I really did, but
the closest I got was a post where someone replaced theirs with the
engine out of their Subaru, so I guessed.
I found a specific plane listed with 1,400 hours left before TBO, so
I'll figure 1,400 in this excercise for math's sake. I'll also assume
100 hours of flying in a year, though I hope it would be more. I know
100 is a magic figure in a lot of discussions around renting vs.
owning.
I know I'm missing something, but I can't figure out what. Here's what
I get for an hourly cost using: (hourly fuel) + ((rebuild cost)/(TBO -
SMOH)) + ((yearly tie down) / 100 hours) + (insurance / 100 hours)
(10) + (8000/1400=5.71) + (600 / 100=6) + (1000 / 100=10) sums out to
$31.71 an hour. Figure another $10 an hour to cover things like
keeping a 'holy crap, the propeller hit a bird' or 'I just GOTTA put a
glass cockpit in' fund full, parking fees, etc, and it comes out just
over $40 an hour.
Am I missing anything big that can't be fit into the extra $10 an hour
I tacked on at the end? Or could I really be owning for that type of
cost?
Thanks!

[Ben Hallert]

I still really want to own my own plane, and part of this was really
motivated by the high rental costs in my neighborhood, but today I
actually went out to a local neighborhood in person and found an FBO
that wasn't listed anywhere who rents 152s for as low as $50 an hour, I
just have to have my own insurance. At that cheap, I'm having a hard
time making the numbers work in my favor unless I go over 100 hours a
year. I think I'll rent in the beginning to make some time and see
what happens.

Thanks everyone for your help! I'm sure I'll be back here in a few
months saying "Wait, wait, I changed my mind. I'm gonna buy".

Thanks!

[Colin W Kingsbury]

Post by Ben Hallert
Thanks everyone for your replies so far! After some thought, I've
turned this blue-sky sequence towards the Tomahawk. I've got a big
frame, and I don't expect that will change as I lose weight, so the

Congratulations on your mass-reduction program. Being there myself I know
how tough it is.

There's nothing terribly wrong with a Tomahawk but if I had the option I'd
go sniffing for a Cherokee 140. You ought to be able to find plenty of 140s
in the 25-35k price range. If you do go on to get your instrument rating you
won't want to do it (or use it) in a Tomhawk, but a 140 is doable. Plus,
though you'll never fill all 4 seats, you can do 3 or 2 plus bags with less
pucker factor than in a tomahawk. You are less likely to outgrow the
Tomahawk too quickly and when you do I would guess it will be easier to
resell.

In terms of operating cost, the big item you're leaving off the list is
maintenance, namely, the annual. That might run you anywhere from
$1000-$5000 per year depending on what they find. If the thought of dropping
$5000 at a moment's notice scares the s--- out of you, get a partner or keep
renting. Nothing sadder than sitting on a plane you can't fly because you
can't afford to fix it.

-cwk.